Jessica at her site, Read React Review, recently posted about the campy fun of reading ye olde bodice ripper.
She featured The Raider, by Jude Deveraux. Here is a quote from the book. Keep in mind, it’s taken out of context…He kissed her again. “You have a choice. We make love tonight on the soft cool sand or I rape you tonight on the sharp rocks.”
The Raider was released in 1987. I didn’t read romance back in ’87 - while I know many of you have been reading romance all your lives, I’m a relative new-comer to the genre. My history with romance goes back…maybe 5-6 years. The only actual semi-bodice ripper I’ve read is Sweet Savage Love, by Rosemary Rogers. Anyway, Jessica and I engaged in a bit of a discussion regarding the appeal of bodice rippers. I don’t generally find a story involving a forced seduction appealing, regardless of the quality of the writing - this isn’t a Politically Correct thing with me. Having experienced a sexual assault first hand, I venture to say there’s nothing seductive about force. Jessica, however, made a good point. She reminded me that in previous generations, a woman could not be sexually promiscuous, or even engage in premarital sex and still be considered a good girl. Ah…the slut factor! A bodice ripper gave a woman permission to express her sexuality in a socially acceptable way. In other words, the mind could still say no, it’s wrong, while the body said - Yess, give it to me baby! And that was okay because our heroine could remain virtuous and in the end our hero always did right by her. C’mon ladies and gents, fess up…is this our secret, deeply buried desire? Or was it at one time?
Here’s Jessica’s post: http://www.readreactreview.com/2010/06/16/review-the-raider-by-jude-deveraux-with-matching-figurines/ It’s well worth the read.
I’m including the definition of a bodice-ripper from the U.K. because, well, we all know the U.K. is the setting for most bodice rippers - either there or the American West. “These books owe much in style to the work of English romantic novelists like Jane Austen and Emily Bronte. Nevertheless, the term itself is American. The first reference in print is from The New York Times, December 1980:
“Women too have their pornography: Harlequin romances, novels of ‘sweet savagery,’ - bodice-rippers.”
“It soon caught on and appears numerous times in the US press from that date onward. Here’s an early example, in a story about [then] emerging novelist, Danielle Steel, from the Syracuse Herald Journal, New York, 1983: “I think of romance novels as kind of bodice rippers, Steel says.”
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/bodice-ripper.html
I’ve found a couple of book bloggers who have unique and entertaining takes on the subject. From Alive and Knitting: ” Once upon a time, historical romance as we now know it did not exist as a genre. The only romances were the sweet little contemporary Mills & Boon romances that came out every month. Then, Kathleen Woodiwiss wrote a book called THE FLAME AND THE FLOWER which sold like crazy. We would now call this an historical romance – it was set in England and colonial America, featured a heroine who came into her own over the course of the book and a strong hero, had lots of historical detail (especially social history), lush prose and explicit sex. (Many thought the sex in this book was too explicit – the first intimate act between the hero and heroine is not consensual.) This book sold and sold and sold, effectively launching a genre. There was a lot of trial and error in the subsequent years, as editors and publishers weren’t entirely sure what element of this book (and other books by Woodiwiss) was so resonant for readers, but Woodiwiss always sold well.” See the link below:
http://www.delacroix.net/wordpress/?p=744
Then head over to check out all three posts about Bodice Rippers from No Book Left Behind: “Those of you who know me know that romance novels are my not-so-secret shame; there’s no amount of college-educated veneer that can cover up my craving for far-flung adventures, flowery purple prose, and aesthetically pleasing protagonists who find themselves falling in love in the most improbable ways.
“And, as I have mentioned on my blog before, I am excruciatingly picky about which bodice rippers I get to buy. None of your $4 Harlequin romances for me - give me the $6-$8 paperbacks with the shimmery gauze and flowers on the front cover (which often conveniently hides the potentially embarrassing Regency-era bodice-ripping tableau underneath), or your contemporary romances with cartoon women in fancy heels and silky scarves! Give me something that has the words “New York Times Bestselling Author” on them, and you’ll know I’m a sucker from the get-go.”
http://nobookleftbehind.blogspot.com/search/label/bodice%20ripping%20cliches
I would love to hear your opinions on the subject. Do you find stories involving forced seduction entertaining? No judgment here…be honest. If so, why? If not, why not? Do you like just a taste of coercion, such as the story of a forced marriage where the two parties end up falling in love? I’d love to hear what books you’d recommend.
I’ll let you in on a secret and this is so not politically correct - I love the movie Three Days of the Condor, starring Robert Redford and Faye Dunaway. I cannot deny that the movie contains a forced seduction. I love the scene but still I cringe a little when I watch it. Robert Redford plays a good guy who is forced by circumstances to do things he wouldn’t otherwise do. Faye Dunaway is pulled into his world - forcibly, including…well…watch it for yourself!
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Forced seduction is not my thing.
Growing up (I was a teenager in the 80′s-yep my 20 year class reunion was this year), I read historical bodice rippers-force seductions- all the time. I loved them, couldn’t get enough of them, and really I do miss reading them now (I know I can but there are so many good books out that I dedicate one month a year to them now). I think that newer bodice rippers have given over to the “he is pressuring me because he is a cad but ultimately he won’t force the issue” because he is a good guy deep down. Even the older ones, in her mind (and what you were reading but he did not know) she wanted to be with him but she was saying no! The girl in me would want a guy to listen to me say no and honestly in these books it usually ended up with her saying yes and meaning yes before they ever did anything but the teasing to points of no return was done usually without her consenting. In real life would I want it to be that way—NOPE! In my historical (and I don’t buy it in contemporary romances), I still don’t mind reading it
I guess because I always wondered if the “no” was from this is the proper way to respond instead of “no I don’t want it”!
~Felicia @ Geeky Bloggers Book Blog
Felicia - that’s the question I’m asking, I think…do women like that - I’m saying ‘no’ but I really mean ‘yes’, but if I say ‘yes’ that will mean I’m a loose woman. I think, in the end, the hero does man-up in most of these.
Okay, for me, I grew up reading the bodice rippers. They’re what lured me to write romance in the first place. As a kid, I never related them to sexual assualt, perhaps because I’ve never experienced that.
However, for me, it was always known in historicals that men were more promiscuous than the women. The “rakes” and what have you. They’ve been around the block. They know what feels good. They’ve been schooled in the art of seduction, if you will. Enter the young, innocent heroine, pure as the driven snow. He wants her. She wants him. However in her naivete, she has no idea the pleasures or the “how to” of lovemaking. But HE knows. And he wants to show her.
More often than not, she’s a proper lady. Never shown her ankles to a man probably. So the thought of getting naked is probably horrifying. BUT, the feelings he brings out in her has her thinking yes, while the constrictions of society (sex before marriage, etc.) makes her say no.
In that respect, the hero must bring her out of her shell and physically SHOW her the pleasure, even if he has to break through her prudence to do it. Because obviously, telling her would either further scare her, or perhaps horrify her. “You want to put your mouth on me WHERE?!?” lol So, in that respect, he is showing her the magic, even when she thinks she doesn’t want it, because in reality, she really does, and she ends up loving it, and wanting more.
Now, that said, there are two books I don’t wish to read ever again. One I’ve read, one I haven’t. Both are by Johanna Lindsey. The first is FIRES OF WINTER and the other is A PIRATE’S LOVE. Those both went beyond forced seduction into rape territory. THAT is a no-no to me. I heard the pirate one had rape, and I never want to read it because of that. I read for myself the rape in FoW, and I threw it across the room. I want the sensual domination, but not the overpowering force. And there’s a difference. But don’t get me wrong, some of my favorite romance is written by Ms. Lindsey. ANGEL. GENTLE ROGUE. LOVE ME FOREVER.
Forced seduction is a fine line, to be sure. But I personally love reading a man who knows what he wants and is a little domineering and a bit forceful. Pinning his heroine against the wall. Holding her hands up, making her confess she wants him. Ripping her clothes off to prove his point. Ahh. Love it!!
~~Becka
*Snort* I read those books when they came out NEW. Loved them all. Why? a) the forbidden. b) the forbidden. c) the forbidden…. Yeah, even the forced seduction was enticing because it allowed something forbidden-orgasm!!!
Looking back on the books now? Not so sure they would have made the grade. But even without those aspects, they were exciting and very new. As a young mother/housewife, they allowed a wonderful escape.
I have a couple of things to say about this, from the standpoint of someone who was assaulted multiple times as a young child. There is helplessness involved in an attack by someone much stronger than you, along with misplaced shame, fear, devastation, guilt, and a slew of “what if”s.
My first thought was actually generated by a guy who used to regularly post on my blog, J. J had fetishes and he and I used to spend a great deal of time discussing things off comment about the whys and wherefores. He said something that stuck with me and has had me mulling over it for nearly a year and a half now. J said that the best he can figure, and everything he’s studied about his particular thing, is it deals with fear.
J figures that fetishes stem from those things which cause us fear. They pump the adrenaline, scare us, etc, and if we can turn them into something else, then our minds cope better. Not everyone does this. For me, for example, I’ve just told you my history, for better or worse. For someone like me then, taking the fear of being controlled without a choice and turning it into being controlled BY my choice now has a different psychological value.
I’m no longer being taken so much as being delivered. I’m not being forced without a say, I set up the situation and ALLOW him to have my body. Whether or not play words come in, I don’t know. I’m not that deep. But, if you trust your partner and you ALLOW them open access to you, you put your tip-toe into the bottomless feeling of “out of control” hence, safely exploring the thing you fear while never actually having to lose control.
When you experience a fear in a “safe” environment, you can minimize the bad moment, take the power away from it, while using the adrenaline to power an orgasm that has a unique signature to you based on the experience.
Which leads to my second thing: If I trust another person completely after multiple encounters, long term relationship, etc and I’ve found them to be NOT the person who hurt me in any way, THEN I can be bound by them by my choice and really, really get off on it.
Which leads back to bodice rippers. Whether or not she is physically bound, she is being emotionally dominated. She feels the binds just as strongly as if she were tied down. So when she gets to say “no, no” while thrashing like a hussy in the bed, she may well be touching that fear of domination all the while knowing she completely makes HIM lose control. It’s a powerful thing.
She dominates his sexual experience because she’s the one who makes him nuts for her when he’s not usually uncontrolled, and she gets to smack society in the face while satisfying what her body really wants, him and the best damn release ever.
Not for some. But definitely for me.
I see the Bodice-rippers as the uncomfortable backlash to the sexual revolution that proceeded them. Yes, women gained rights and found their sexual freedom in society in the 60′s and 70′s but they also jumped feet first into a realm where men still had the advantage and many women got burned. Some lessons had yet to absorbed about sexual boundaries and self-esteem. I believe Bodice Rippers with the contradictory message of “my lips say no but my eyes say yes” reflects women’s mixed-feelings at the time about giving into and enjoying full-blown sexual experiences. Its scary stuff and great victory for women if you view it in context.
XXOO Kat
The old bodice rippers actually have me of two minds. I understand the need to satisfy the need to run by the “society needs” of the time the book is set in, and still achieve the allusive (in that time) sexual release. But at the same time if it is not by a person that is also desired rape is rape. If it is a “forced seduction” in most cases it was that she wanted him, but by societies standards she couldn’t allow herself to have him, and that was a way she could satisfy her desires. Yet, at the same time I have to wonder if that is not sending a mixed message “As long as her body is reacting then it doesn’t matter what comes out of her mouth”.
I think there are many who have the desire to feel that visceral “out of control” feeling, but it has to do a lot with trust. Trusting that the other will follow through with your real desires if you get uncomfortable. Trust that you are safe, no matter what. As long as there is trust and desire mutually anything goes!
I thought about this for some time now and I think for me it depends on the heroine. When you get a glimpse at her thoughts and you know that she wants it deep inside but has some moral boundaries or other silly obstacles in her head, it works for me. I have to be sure that she wants it. I think otherwise I can’t really live with these kind of scenes. But I haven’t read many of those books.
And I agree with what Mia said about the fear.
Becka - yes, I see your point - the story is more of a learning curve for our heroine - more of an awakening of her sexual nature. I totally get that! This is an appealing theme - our experienced hero giving pleasure to our innocent heroine who he wants with all his soul…and, of course, deep inside she wants him! But a good girl never says ‘yes’.
When ‘forced seduction’ (which may be a misnomer in the first place) crosses the line into a literal rape - big no-no for me too!
Anny - yeah, don’t we all love the forbidden! When my mom said don’t do something, I immediately did it!
Mia - maybe it’s like a roller coaster ride or watching a horror film - we love being afraid, the adrenaline rush, the resulting endorphins - I can always go for some domination as long as it’s with the one guy I trust to never take things too far. Because…and like you, I’ve experienced nasty stuff…I’m a very assertive woman and I do what I want. Sometimes what I want is to be dominated by a strong man. OMG, have I entered the land of TMI??? My strong man is my totally devoted, utterly trustworthy hubby! I count my blessings everyday!
Kat - really insightful! I love it, “my lips say no but my eyes say yes.” True - I guess we had one foot in both worlds back then and quite frankly, still do to a great extent!
@ Julia. If it’s TMI, I preceded you. No worries there.
I’d ask if your man has brothers, but I already know the answer to that.
Nicole - I agree - don’t we all love that visceral out of control feeling - but usually only if we truly feel safe. Like the roller coaster ride - we can be scared out of our wits and screaming our heads off, but no matter how scary, deep inside we assume we can trust the ride the get us safely to the end.
It’s why I come back to Three Days of the Condor. Our hero is not a bad guy. He’s a nice guy forced by circumstances to behave out of character. In a very real sense, he forces the heroine to have sex with him, but at the same time, she’s kind of willing…does that make any sense? It’s the closest I can come to an analogy.
Yes, Susi - those silly moral standards that get in the way! If we have a glimpse of the heroine’s thoughts we know she truly wants her man. Like you, I do have to draw the line at certain actions though.
Julia, I’m right there with you, wanting to be dominated. Now, that is not to say I want the Dom/sub relationship (not that there’s anything wrong with that). What I mean is, if it’s a man you trust, and he takes what he wants, shows you how he wants it, with no embarrassment-it’s awesome. Tossing you on the bed, kind of unhinged by being so turned on by you… It’s the intensity I think we’re after.
And that’s probably why Alpha males are so hot in romance. Women like the no-nonsense man, the intense man, the wholly-devoted man. The man that gets shizz done and is the perfect lover.
However, a lot of times, the domination in romance comes *before* the heroine fully trusts the hero. More often than not, there’s a lot more plot that needs to get through after they make love. Sometimes the heroine can be ashamed of what she did and the hero has another “forced seduction” scene.
I think it works better for me if I can read for myself that the hero wants only her, he’s after only her, he can think of nothing but her. Sometimes you have the forced scenes when the rake just thinks of her as a “conquest”, but over the course of the book he changes his tune. If, from the get go, you absolutely know he’s mad about her, the forced works better for me than just throwing it in there for the domination.
Did that make sense just now?
~~Becka
Very intriguing subject, Julia. Forced seduction - to me it depends on how much seduction. I read them when I was younger because of the exciting covers and the forbidden aspect. Now I want there to be seduction and emotional honesty. A bloke doing so for a power kick doesn’t appeal to me at all. But a male persuading, in a relationship that is going to mean something - that’s quite sexy to me.
Are there any modern ‘bodice rippers’ or are they all set in the past?
If you will take note, most of the books that boasted a forced seduction were books about people who lived in Viking days, or Revolutionary war days, or…you get the picture. A woman taking an active part in her own “seduction” was totally scandalous. Men were portrayed in sexy, wild abandon, while women had to be “pure”. So books used periods of time when men were men and ladies were just that…”ladies”. We could live vicariously. We could watch the hot flower of femininity be ravished by the hot guy, and enjoy thinking of ourselves in her place…and still be totally “pure”. LOL!
In the 70′s, women were not quite ready to accept that they could be wicked and naughty without being “ruined” for a good man. That double standard was firmly in place, and women who wanted to be “good” had to remain untouched sexually (even in their minds).
It’s still incredibly sexy for a guy to initiate the lovemaking, but it’s even more incredibly sexy for the gal to take a full hand in the seduction.
Becka - there is nothing I hate worse than a man who talks the relationship to death! IRL and in a story. Yes, I love a hot Alpha male who takes what he wants but with the woman’s trust and consent - even if it’s unspoken….a man who is all about her, rather than a man who takes what he wants and then maybe later, after many plot devices, comes to care for her.
Lindsay - A couple of Karen Marie Moning’s Highlander books tease a bit with forced seduction, mostly because you have heroines who are virgins, for whatever reasons - but you also have heroes who definitely want that one woman and set out to get her, or win her over. The heroines want the heroes just as much, but they aren’t quite experienced enough to make that big leap of faith - of course they eventually do! The Dark Highlander is one such story.
Fran, I agree. These are mostly period pieces, set in the days when a lady was supposed to remain pure in body and in soul. So yes, I guess the hero would be a rake - if he was taking her body! And the 70′s were times of great upheaval for women - yes, it was the free love generation but I assume women were conflicted. There was a price to pay even for free love!
Scarlett and Rhett
I am sure that after mmmph years of readiing I have read mmmphteen romance books — rarely is the rape called rape. Well, except in the recent Saberhagen Seance for a Vampire; but then the raped vampire becomes a wanton and her fiance is disgusted.Fangs, Wands and Fairy Dust
steph@fangswandsandfairydust.com
Yes, Scarlett and Rhett - married rape. Except as you recall, the movie had Scarlett happy and singing the next morning because a little ravishing was what she really wanted all along, and then Rhett went and spoiled it all by saying something stupid (that was a song, right?) like I won’t darken your door again or enter your scarlet pavilion unbidden…
Actually, while I do love that movie, I like the book better - Scarlet is far more fleshed out!
To my mind, “forced seduction” is a pretty term for rape. That “she said no, but she really meant yes” is a rationalization men use to excuse their bad behavior. The trouble is, they get away with it because so many women let them. I never liked the so-called “bodice-ripper” for that reason. Probably for the same reason I don’t care for alpha male heroes. They’re the ones who do this.
I hated the movie “Gone With the Wind” precisely because I saw Rhett carrying Scarlett up to the bedroom as rape. But you don’t know how many women my age thought the movie was the most romantic thing they ever saw. As for the book, I read half of it and tossed it away. Note, I saw the movie and half-read the book when I was 19, and I’m no spring chicken. So, I have NEVER believed in the sexiness of rape.
I also see a troubling trend today with some romances where the hero also rapes the heroine. Readers will call it “forced seduction” and they love it. There is absolutely no justification for this now. And these books sell well! I think anyone who fantasizes about rape needs a new fantasy.
Linda - you make a very strong point and I tend to lean pretty hard in your direction, with the caveat that I think most women understand the difference between fantasy and reality. I will have to agree that chances are anyone with a serious rape fantasy hasn’t been sexually assaulted. There’s nothing ‘fantastic’ about it.
Is domination a turn on? Speaking for myself, yes, when I’m with my hubby and I know it’s all pretend and I trust him with my life. (not talking bdsm here)
Gone with the wind…I preferred Scarlet in the book - she had far more substance as a human being. I loved her in the movie because she was so single-minded, such a survivor. The only way I can describe Rhett is to say that he was a Rake in every sense of the word. Clark Gable played him as a black-hearted sexy beast - whether a heart of gold beat under that exterior, I don’t know. He did love his daughter and he desired Scarlet above all women. He certainly never managed to tell Scarlet how much he loved her.
I think in the end, I resented the Ashley character far more than Rhett.